Episode 9: Fighting Two Wars
For Black soldiers, the Vietnam War was not only a struggle to stay alive, but a battle against the persistent racism in the U.S. military. In this episode, we examine the resistance efforts by Black soldiers who were literally fighting two wars – one against Vietnam and the other against their own country. Four Black GIs tell their stories of fighting back and how PTSD affected the rest of their lives. Historian Sam Black gives context on how an integrated military and colonialism intersected with the GI experience. We uncover the origin of the DAP, discuss the rise of fraggings, where soldiers deliberately killed their officers, and consider the influence on Black GIs of civil rights leaders Martin Luther King Jr, Malcolm X, and Muhammad Ali.
Check out the show notes.
Guests/Subjects
- Lamont Steptoe: Enlisted Army 1968-71. Participated in mass defection from OCS. Served as a dog handler in VN for 16 mos. Organized demonstration in VN with Black GIs to commemorate the death of Malcolm X.
- Jabiya Dragonsun (Julius Williams): Enlisted Army 1967-69. Passive resistance: general non-compliance with orders in Vietnam. Spoke publicly against the war at peace rallies while stationed at Ft. Carson, CO.
- Greg Payton: Drafted Army 1967-69. Rec’d three courts-martial for a variety of charges, including AWOL, assault and disrespect to an officer. Involved in the 1968 prison riot at LBJ.
- Clarence Fitch (deceased): Enlisted Marine Corps 1966-69. Served in Vietnam in 1968. Involved in GI organizing on active duty and for the rights of black servicemen.
- Sam Black: Historian at the Heinz History Center in Pittsburgh and the author of Soul Soldiers, African Americans and the Vietnam Era.
Background and extra material:
- Peace Warrior: How I Escaped the Prison of Anger, by Greg Payton with J.T. Malloy. Published June 2025.
- Vietnam Generation (Academic Journal), Volume 2, Number 1 GI Resistance: Soldiers and Veterans Against the War
- Black GI Resistance During the Vietnam War by David Cortright – 1990
- The Black Panther (Newspaper) Saturday June 28, 1969
- Background on the DAP
- Black History Moment – The DAP (Video Essay)
- Five on the Black Hand Side: Origins and Evolutions of the Dap | Folklife Magazine (Smithsonian Center for Folklife & Cultural Heritage)
- History of integration in the US Armed Services – Military Times Article
- Black Journal #22 – Video from National Educational Television
- Featuring a film by Black GIs in Vietnam: March 26, 1970 with Lou House and William Greaves
- The Unique Bond Between Black Americans and the Vietnamese During the Vietnam War – Article from Asia Matters for America
- Studies on drug addiction:
- Drugs, Vietnam, and the Vietnam Veteran: An Overview Article from The American Journal of Drug and Alcohol Abuse, Encompassing All Addictive Disorders, Volume 3, 1976
- Excerpt of President Truman in 1948 – executive order ending segregation in America’s armed forces featured in “Fighting for racial equality in the military” by CBS Sunday Morning
- Full Speech: Text and Audio – Martin Luther King, Jr: A Time to Break Silence (Declaration Against the Vietnam War)
- Documentary film about MLK’s decision to speak out against the Vietnam War:
- Special Report Dr Martin Luther King Assassination April 4, 1968
- WNBC TV in New York, New York, United States from April 4, 1968
- Archival footage of how NBC News Covered: The Assassination of Martin Luther King, Jr.
- Video: Signing of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 – LBJ Library
- Malcolm X’s Last Speech – About the US committing oppression in Vietnam and the Global South (from X’s final speech before he was assassinated)
- Nonfiction book on Malcolm X’s legacy – including his influence on Muhammad Ali
- Video of Muhammad Ali refusing induction into the US Armed Forces: April 28, 1967 Press Conference
- Black Power – episode of Black History in Two Minutes or So hosted by Henry Louis Gates Jr. exploring the phrase popularized by Kwame Ture
- Court-martial of Billy Dean Smith – Wikipedia – Fragging case that made a young Black soldier into a cause celeb among anti-war GIs and civilians.
- Author George Lepre’s book Fragging: Why U.S. Soldiers Assaulted Their Officers in Vietnam
- Sir No Sir – 2005 Documentary – David Zeiger, featuring Terry Whitmore
- Clip of Trinh Thi Ngo: Hanoi Hannah radio segment
Songs:
- “I-Feel-Like-I’m-Fixin’-to-Die Rag” – Country Joe McDonald – 1967
- “Oh, It Is Jesus” – Andrea Crouch, featuring Tata Vega – 1984
- Wade in the Water – Ella Jenkins and Goodwill Spiritual Choir of Monumental Baptist Church – 1960
- Viet Nam – Madame Nellie Robinson
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Website: https://amatterofconscience.com/
Credits:
Producers and Hosts: Willa Seidenberg and Bill Short
Producer and Sound Design: Polina Cherezova
Associate Producer: Dylan Purvis
Promotional Assistance: Reenua Jones and Lauren Bui
Music Arrangements: Danny Seidenberg
Fiscal Sponsor: The International Documentary Association
Special thanks to the Kazan McLain Partners Foundation
On Patrol by Lamont B. Steptoe
I still move through life
as if I was in Vietnam
with snipers and booby traps
ready to waste me
Twenty years later
loud noises disconnect my heart
a cat’s whisker
twitching in the wind
wakes me at night
Twenty years later
I’m still at war
because America’s at war with me
(or rather the color of me)
Twenty years later I’m still breathing
Many ain’t
Hit Parade by Jabiya Dragonsun
Full of life
Eyes bright with music
Your joy
Your excitement for life
Soothed the anger inside
To hear you speak of home
Gave reason to endure the war
To hear you sing
Shaped my life
You were not a casualty
Just a victim
A target
A number of war
You were not counted by
The Viet Cong
Never listed on their charts
On their hit parade
Your death was never music to
Their fine-tuned ears
My friend
My brother in war
You
You
Frankie you were
Another King
Another Malcolm
Another nigger in the bush
Gunned down by stars and bars
Another score added to
The Klu Klux Klan’s
Good old boys
Hit parade